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Battlegrounds: Problem, Psychology, Solution


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Hi everyone. 

As a new player in Sunwell, but with a experience from the World of Warcraft, I've already see a big issue that making Battlegrounds unplayable. Don't make me wrong, it's not a whine post and I'am far from accusing anyone here. I've decided to share with you all my thoughts and I hope you're going to atleast try to understand the problem.

Problem

Main problem on Battlegrounds is now a big unbalance between fractions. What we can see now is a lot of new incoming 80's in Horde, and less in Aliiance. Probably that was a problem from the start and in some time Alliance develop better PvP. Don't make me wrong. Quantity doesn't give a quality. For now there is less Alliance players, but geared players, and more Horde players, but with a fresh gear. That makes a HUGE disproportions! There is no chance for a competetive game when one fraction win almost all BGs.

In simple it looks like:

More wins = more honor = better gear = more wins.

It's not only problem for the Horde, but for Alliance also. What's funny in farming Horde on graveyard? You don't even need to try. No adrenaline, simple boring easy win.

Psychology

Okey. You can say, that Horde could try, do more. But what can you do if everyone see the problem and everytime on BG people after just a few seconds saying "That's gonna be another lose like always" or "Let's lose fast, let them win". With such a attitude there is no chance for normal game. People neither just walk around and try do a little honors or rage quit and reroll to Alliance. In both case it's not good for everyone. (And remember not much people will reroll at same time, thats why always there will be more geared players in Alliance than fresh 80's, and these geared players will give honors for not geared and in the end no geared will have gear faster and play better.)

And even if you finally get a honors for whole gear, you are alone, with fresh players, and you start again lose. That making people sad, mad and rage quiting.

Solution

I'm not really fan of such a solutions, but for now I don't have other ideas. Maybe you do? if yes please say anything and let's talk about that. My solution is to break a chain of problem:

More wins = more honor = better gear = more wins. 

I would like to see it more like this FOR HORDE:

4x Cheaper S1 (Hateful Gladiator Gear) and S2 Off Set (Deadly Gladiator Gear) = Better Gear Faster = MORE GEARED PLAYERS AND BALANCED GAMES = MORE FUN.

Alliance stay with the same rules unless it's gonna be better balanced.

I know it's not a best solution cause it's a giving help hand for weakest fraction, but the same you did for Alliance when you wanted more players on these fraction. Don't think about that like about taking care of weak gazelle. Think about the game, and fun. Battlegrounds are the best thing in PVP, make it great again. 

 

I hope you gonna atleast share it to friends from game and discuss about it. Sorry for any mistakes, i'm not native english speaker. Take care!

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Hey, depends on time really and if someone wants to lead that BG. We had 5 wins in a row the other day during morning EU time on the 70-79 WSG -i'm Horde. (90% loss before and after that ofc). It's a ''proven fact'' that Alliance is more good at PVP while Horde at PVE and sadly not everyone care that much for the win or either just expect to get carried. Some give up too quickly and are eager to queue again for that less XP -we had 33 horde in queue and 3 alliance at some point. Some need to learn to well .. PVP, stick together and communicate, heal, go for flag, defend it and so on -depending on BG. Instead of afk-ing/raging on chat and making the others feel like shit/scattering all across the map/leave and get debuff + no xp etc. Keep in mind that most of them do queue indeed w really bad gear, same for over 5 levels. Also queue is random so you might not get healers, higher levels, people who are good at pvp. Anyways sorry for ranting, that's just the BGs leveling part. At 80, if you're going to queue in full greens and run aimlessly with 0 idea on how to win there ... PLEASE, kindly frick off, get better gear, do some duels, watch yt, read guides, make some macros,  learn stuffs and only queue after that!

''The FIX''? -> We're gonna get Crossfaction BGs and Twinks back at some point, maybe soon since it's already been tested and what not. 

*stop it w the damn perks lmao*

LE:  (Free) transfers back would be nice too. No worries, there's always going to be more horde.

Edited by Pearl
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Thanks for your posts!

Well crossfraction actually sounds nice. With Team A and Team B mixed by players from both fractions problem with BG's should dissapear. 

Is that even possible to implement on this server?

PS. There is also wierd problem with WG. Even if you add to queqe there is no chance to get in. Sup with that?

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But horde winning many many more bg's at 80 lvls.. Crossfaction is stupid and bad idea! I dont want to play under weak Alliance faction flag and I bet many ally Players dont want to play under horde faction flag. 

 

Maybe problem with bg's losing is you? One Player can bring huge impact to whole game. IMO bg's are fine and dont need to change anything, only thing to change is for twinks - let them play vs each other (ppl Who stopped XP getting different bg que than ones Who still leveling and getting XP) 

Edited by Caise
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No horde wins lots of bg's.. I have myself played 277 overall and 187 wins. Sometimes ally wins a lot too but horde is fine in overall.. And I never saw once good game from your side man.. Thats why im saying maybe you are the problem of your bg's losing? 

 

And believe crossfaction is stupid as fck, no need to putting crossfaction bg when you dont have to wait more than ~8minutes for bg pop on horde side - crossfaction will fcked up bg's and many pvpers will stop playing it, believe me. 

Edited by Caise
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The issue with WOTLK BGs is that they don't differentiate between rated and non-rated match as for example Cata does, so organized premades have no other choice than to encounter often non-premading teams which can be frustrating for the latter if the premades start spamming BGs in a row.

Cross faction would be nice to decrease faction unbalancing but doesn't help a lot in the single encounter: e.g 1 time alliance get premade "X", the second time horde gets the same premade in its team. that's great for faction balancing but not for the enemies, who may be the same everytime, although they have a chance to play along the premade and not against it. Differentiating matches between premades and not premades (say 2 people party max allowed in non-premade queue) would be very good for playability but I don't know if it's sustainable. Issues with premades tend to increase when the population is lower.

Low geared team issues are usually transitory and really a part of WOTLK as there are, again, no team balancing mechanisms (afaik), which in fact are imo very deserving to be introduced as a feature. It's just how WOTLK is, and the "retail way" to correct this issue may be promoting faction balancing even further to bring it close to 50-50, which though afaik occurred rarely even in retail wow. I surely wouldn't despise smart mechanics (premade matching, gear bracketing, team/healer balancing...) to make this 10 year old game more balanced, they would make BGs more enjoyable especially if paired with cross-faction to reduce queue times. A very interesting feature would be to balance the number of healers per team in a flexible way, e.g. start the match if both teams have e.g. >2 healers, or both teams have none etc. Gear bracketing was tested on another server but afaik didn't prove very effective and was prone to exploits (green geareds with bis weapons); also it would be better to balance the overall team instead of aligning all the players to the same gs, to not deny an incentive for less-geared players to improve their gear, while still mantaining team balancing. It may be given the choice to queue for balanced+cross faction BGs or for unoptimized BGs; I would find it great.

BGs are a great part of the game, either for casuals and more intense players, and I would appreciate any effort to make them more balanced by correcting some features old WOTLK missed. In this sense, twinks' queue separation and cross-faction (still to be introduced) are already very important steps in the right direction for which Sunwell administration surely must be praised for, proving to care to an optimal balancing of the game.

 

Edited by Trelhar
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Caise i doubt problem is in on my side since other players in game have a same feelings. Maybe you play in premades or in diffrent time. I'm speaking as a fresh 80, i know my gear is not perfect, but im doing quiet good dmg and know how to play. I've take a look on the statistics and still mostly Allies win so I don't know where you get your win/loss stats, also there is a top players and belive me, i havent see them in game with me even once.

A very interesting feature would be to balance the number of healers per team in a flexible way, e.g. start the match if both teams have e.g. >2 healers

This^

There is no doubt that some changes must occur to save pvp. I'm not sure now if premades even works, but if yes, there should be no premades allowed. 

Edited by Yiy
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I hope devs wont listen to you guys and they wont change anything cause game and bg's are fine.. Any change can RIP pvp on this server.

 

Angrathar doesnt had crossfaction and it was fine, Just dont put crossfaction on this server aswell, thanks. If you dont like to playing on horde side, wait for transfer and go to Alliance 

Edited by Caise
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Well...

I will join this discussion. 

I don't think that there's no balance betwen the Alliance. As somebody said it depends on time. I've played a lot after reaching 80. And I'm right after returning to WotLK. And there's the same problem as always - if I play a few BGs in a row, all of them are won or lost - if I win one or two I'd win all the next BGs. And the same with loses. So I think that it depends on time, really. Sometimes I have good group, sometimes not (I'm not kinda good PvP player, but I have my good and bad moments), but at the beginning of every BG I know that I will win or lose. Dunno why...

But really, I think that there's no solution that would satisfy everyone - if devs will boost Horde players, then Allies will have a problem with it. If Alliance will be nerfed/boosted - there will be a problem from the Horde's side. 

On 4/4/2020 at 2:47 PM, Yiy said:

Okey. You can say, that Horde could try, do more. But what can you do if everyone see the problem and everytime on BG people after just a few seconds saying "That's gonna be another lose like always" or "Let's lose fast, let them win". With such a attitude there is no chance for normal game.

I've never seen situation like that mentioned. But well, sometimes I have "a very good player", let's say, who knows whole tactics (especially at 70-79 BG) and who will suggest the best tactic for everyone. And then he flames if something went wrong. I don't know about the situation today, it was during the honor points/exp boost a few weeks ago. But there were many BGs - everyone played to farm HKs and HPs. I was one of them and my win:lose ratio was like 50:50.

 

4 hours ago, Trelhar said:

The issue with WOTLK BGs is that they don't differentiate between rated and non-rated match as for example Cata does, so organized premades have no other choice than to encounter often non-premading teams which can be frustrating for the latter if the premades start spamming BGs in a row.

You're totally right! Well, many premades do play BGs and farm HKs - it's easy for them and they usually boost whole group. And the same is with WG (but now I don't play WG because when I was playing it a lot everytime server was crashing after starting and now I wonder if there's some kind of a player limit), where u have many premades and probably less green-geared ppl. What to do? You can't just say "leave it u idiot, don't farm HK with us because u re noob" * to him..

*-based on my experience. One time some polish-speaking guy started to flame me after BG because I was at lost BG with 2,9 GS tho.

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On 4/4/2020 at 2:47 PM, Yiy said:

"I would like to see it more like this FOR HORDE:

4x Cheaper S1 (Hateful Gladiator Gear) and S2 Off Set (Deadly Gladiator Gear) = Better Gear Faster = MORE GEARED PLAYERS AND BALANCED GAMES = MORE FUN.

Alliance stay with the same rules unless it's gonna be better balanced.

I know it's not a best solution cause it's a giving help hand for weakest fraction, but the same you did for Alliance when you wanted more players on these fraction. Don't think about that like about taking care of weak gazelle. Think about the game, and fun. Battlegrounds are the best thing in PVP, make it great again. "

 

If you want to make the Alliance even more irrelevant and make the server be "Horde only", yeah, why not.

Seriously, the Horde ATM is superior to Alliance in almost every aspect except in BG thanks to the unbalance.

- More population = More AH items; more people on RDF; PVP outdoor superiority; priority doing quest thanks to that superiority (because some of the hordes simply are doing the quest, but others don't doubt in killing you if they are 2 or even more to make you don't kill the npcs needed for X quest); more possibilities to have good people to make raids (pugs or in a guild)...

One quick example: I have 3 PJs in the Alliance, and with only one i have made the Zul'Drak Colliseum/arena quest. Every time to do it the other Pjs, it was impossible because there was always like 2 groups of hordes to make it. And they aren't going to wait to your little group to do the quest when they can simply kill you, obtain free honor points and they can do the quest first.

The fix is simply: Open migrations (who is gonna go to the losing team and lose all the things I put before?) or limit the new Horde PJs that can be created. Or give some temporal benefits to the Alliance to encourage to the people to create Alliance PJs instead of Horde's ones.

Edited by Rhaemyr
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Well, more bg's, more experience. It's not only the problem of gear, but also tactics. I was on few WG's for example and We lose everything cause people doing tower quests. Mkey, maybe I had one win, and we won barelly in last seconds. Same thing happening on SOTA, but sometimes if people listen, we can actually win. My stats from yestarday was like 5 wins and 15 loses. I doubt once I'll hit full PvP gear it's gonna change, maybe slighty. The only way to win a lot is premade, but how newcomers can do a premades if there is hard to join any pvp guild. Meanwhile alliance gearing faster. I saw the ally that was lvling with me and hit 80 in same time almost. He is now full gear, enginnering, everything and destroying. 

Crossfaction is not bad idea, cause it gives everyone same chance to win, without premades. 

Caise you are playing premades and that's why you are saying that is bad idea, you like easy wins and probably losing vs premade ally :') 

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l2p plz horde. I play here only for my friends if i cant play premades i will going out. Plays with noobs in crossfaction will cause more frustration in good players. Animals are animals and nothing will change that.

edit: earlier ppls doing transfers to ally and lose too, the next step is cry in the forum. So where is the problem? In good players or maybe animals without brain?

Edited by Groszkowy
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Yiy Just wait for transfer and go to Alliance lose even more, dont try to destroy our pvp experience because bg's here is rly rly fine no need to change anything and one more... Skill > gear son, if you think that when you Will get better gear makes you better in game? You wrong skill >> gear, you are Just bad and thats why you crying. 

 

Im playing premades and solo aswell, doesnt Matter still can win a lot playing solo 

Edited by Caise
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No one crying here, smart people took a normal conversation, you don't. 

And you now nothing about my skill boy, and i didnt say that gear is more important than skill, but when u are facing skilled player as well, and you have no gear at all, you gonna lose no matter what you do.

Nice to read that all when people actually care to make BG better experience, they have to face people like Groszkowy or Caise that just flaming and talking shit about someone ealse. As you said, I'll try alliance side, i'll not even wait for char transfer. If my exeperience will be the same, I'll came here and personaly apologize to you Caise. 

No one want to destroy anything, I just want to share my experience, and talk about it, and belive me it's not about skills. Maybe it's just server newcomer problem, but for any new people here it would be the same. 

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