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MrCulé

Periodic Survey: Angrathar - Summary!

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MrCulé    201

Good morning, our dearest Angrathar community!

This month marks 9th mensiversary of Angrathar and with all responsibility we can state that Angrathar turned out to be a huge success. Even more: Sunwell, as a server outside of the network of older servers, such as Twinstar/Warmane/post-Nostalrius (Elysium&LH), was the first project to be successful and healthy in the long-term. It just shows how tough is the environment of private WoW servers.

Since the beginning of our international Wrath of the Lich King realm, over 100 000 unique players logged in. We have stable 25 000 unique players monthly. This number of players allows to play comfortably, and yet, the most vital part of Wrath of the Lich King is awaiting. We don't hide that we've got high hopes in context of population growth in Fall of the Lich King season. We're going to provide the best scripted final PvE content of all WotLK servers, as we did previously, which was confirmed by our periodic poll.

About that poll. Voice of the community was always very important to us, that's why we think that periodic polls are necessary. We want to see how you rate our work, what's your opinion on various subjects regarding Angrathar or what you expect from us in the future. Our goal is to find common ground for various needs and expectations (and that's not easy), because something which looks black in the eyes of one player, shines with bright white in the eyes of another player. This poll is also used as a form for democratic vote: where opinion of the majority of our players will determine whether to do or not to do a various action; such as the poll about transmogrification. Most of the players were in favor, and we've introduced this feature. The whole concept behind Angrathar was to hear the voice of the community and not introducing features this community don't want. Today, we will ask about introducing a tool which will allow us to keep healthy playerbase and online count even after Fall of the Lich King season launch, but first things first. Let's get to overview of the poll and our plans resulting from the feedback.

Periodic Poll

The periodic poll was created 9th October 2018, gathering the votes concluded 16th October, so it was up for a week. We have announced it on our website, Facebook fanpage, Discord and in-game, so everyone could learn about it. We've gathered 1277 votes total (however in some cases there are less votes, because the poll was about WotLK and TBC and not all the questions were obligatory). It's enough to interpolate it for the whole playerbase (although this voting wasn't of representative character, which is hard in this trade).

Question no 1

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Results like this, where over 80% of the players rate Angrathar as a good or very good realm, considering the scripting quality, is something very pleasant for us. We'll do everything so your opinion stays the same or is even better (just wait for ICC! :) )

Question no 2

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In case of Call of the Crusade quality question, happy & very happy people reach 80%, which is good for us, however we also need to satisfy that remaining 20%, which weren't really happy from the outcome. If you're one of these 20%, please write in the comment what you didn't like and we'll try to resolve this as quick as we can (not counting the difficulty).

Question no 3

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Third question was about difficulty of ToGC and we must say, we expected these results when we decided about ToGC difficulty. We didn't want Call of the Crusade season to be explicitly hard, because first: it's not really climatic and second: the amount of bosses is so little, that gating players on 1st or 2nd boss would be really frustrating. Let's think of this season as warm up before storming the gates of Icecrown Citadel.

Question no 4

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That was one of the most important questions, because releasing Fall of the Lich King in the right moment is extremely important. We don't want Call of the Crusade, which isn't as attractive in PvE, to become stagnant, because people wait for ICC. We also don't want Angrathar players to look for more things to do on TBC realm, which is going to be live by December. Good condition of both realms is a priority for us.

That's why we have decided that schedule of Fall of the Lich King could look like this:

  • 8th December - opening of the first wing of ICC and release of Pit of Saron, The Forge of Souls and Halls of Reflection; beginning of Wrathful Gladiator season and adding the last boss on VoA.
  • 15th December - opening of the second wing of ICC.
  • 22th December - opening of the third wing of ICC.
  • 5th January - opening of the fourth wing of ICC, with the Lich King himself.

We're perfectly aware that PvP players might have not enough time to gather all the gear, so if we decide to go with this schedule, we'll organize two additional flushes.

Questions no 5 and 6

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Short and to the point. ICC 10 Normal and ICC 25 Normal will stay blizzlike, because we need to leave something for the less hardcore players that need to gear up.

The case of 10 Heroic and 25 Heroic is different. 10-Man Heroic will be hard and 25-Man Heroic, awarded with the most prestigious Realm First achievement in whole Wrath of the Lich King, is going to be very hard. We want the fight against the Lich King to last at least until Spring 2019. More details will come soon.

Slave Market – a suggestion of introducing it to Angrathar

One of the questions we've asked was players opinion regarding P2W. We do not hide that these questions were asked in the context of financing the project and its dynamic growth. The option of character exchange gathered so many votes that it allows us to start this discussion.

First and foremost, we ask you not to fear anything regarding that matter. As we said on the beginning, we will not introduce anything without the community's approval. We want to tell you how does Slave Market work and talk about it's positive impact on the project.

Slave Market - how does it work?

Slave Market works just like Auction House, however its currency isn't gold, but Sunwell Coins. The prices are shaped by the market - the players - and the administration doesn't have any impact on that.

Slave Market allows you to exchange characters with other players that are not higher than 78 lvl. If your warrior is too boring for you, you sell it and you buy a druid. Slave Market would also allow new players, who do not want to level.

The exchange would take place on www.sunwell.pl and it would be both intuitive and safe.

After buying, the character is instantly transferred to the account of another player, but it gains 100% functionality only after server restart(however @Riztazz

found a nice way to eliminate this requirement during works on character restoring). Then all its parameters are assigned to a new account.

REASONS BEHIND THE PROPOSAL OF INTRODUCING SLAVE MARKET

1. Financing the project

At the beginning we want to calm you down - not introducing the Slave Market won't make us close Angrathar or any of the realms in the future. We've got some resources set aside, for the most basic functioning of the project, and if they run out, we will fund the project from our own pockets (even though we're not millionaires).

If we want a project like ours to function, we need constant income, because the list of expenses is long; we've said it multiple times. Currently, our project is growing dynamically, which we owe to a big amount of people working for the comfort of your gameplay. Our sole source of income is experience boost service, which, naturally, becomes less and less attractive by each passing month (because most of the players have their characters at level 80 already). We didn't want and we still don't want to resign from free experience boost events, because we know that we have some players that simply can't afford buying that themselves.

Slave Market would allow us to keep all the staff members which work tireless for project's development and we can't hide that we really care about that.

2. Influx of the new players which want to play without spending large amount of time.

The number of players like that is constantly growing, whether we like that or not. Angrathar enters its last stage of progress and we know that it will attract less players which will spend their time just to develop their character. We wish Angrathar population would grow even after full progress so the players won't waste their precious time which they spent here.

Slave Market would attract hundreds of new players for Fall of the Lich King season.

Poll 

The poll, which you can find below, has three options and its' results will be final: it will be either rejected or approved(the ratio of votes is also important). At least 70% of all votes must be for implementation. 

Let's take all the pros coming from Slave Market:

+ assuring the resources for further development of the project;
+ assuring influx of the players that do not want to spend lots of time for developing their character;
+ stopping outflow of players bored with their current characters (they'll be able to trade it for another character);
+ possibility to use the shop without the need to support the project by selling the character for Sunwell Coins;
+ safe character trading, which still happens on some websites, which extort player's sensitive data and money.

Introducing Slave Market to Feronis realm (after Ulduar/Furious Gladiator season) enlarged the playerbase without any negative effects.

Poll options:

1. I'm in favor of introducing the Slave Market for good*
2. I'm in favor of introducing the Slave Market for testing, e.g. for one weekend, just to see how it works and what effect it gives
3. I am against the introduction of the Slave Market. 

POLL:


*In the case of introduction, we will establish detailed conditions under which it will work.

Thank you for reading this long post. Let's discuss that.

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Saberbeast    4

Thank you for such a long and full of details post. I've played on Sunwell since January 2017 and I'm still impressed of your professionalism and attitude toward players. It's actually the first project where the community votes are important and I'd like to thank you for that. 

When it comes to Slave Market. I'm neutral, it's not the P2W tool in my opinion and if Sunwell would be able to develop even more thanks to this feature I agree for it. 
 

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Lumo    7

Mostly excited for all this but guys is releasing third wing 3 days before christmas really a smart idea I personally would've waited till 1st of January around there to release but if December will be the release date fine but releasing a wing at a time when most people won't be playing and will be more likely visiting family is just a bit stupid in my opinion. 

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MrCulé    201
12 minutes ago, Phy said:

Most people voted for late january and you're going for late december/early january anyway :D

As we mentioned in the survey, the results are the significant feedback, but we must think about many other factors apart from individual preferences of players. 

We described why we want to implement in this specific time period. 

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MrCulé    201
13 minutes ago, Lumo said:

Mostly excited for all this but guys is releasing third wing 3 days before christmas really a smart idea I personally would've waited till 1st of January around there to release but if December will be the release date fine but releasing a wing at a time when most people won't be playing and will be more likely visiting family is just a bit stupid in my opinion. 

So you would postpone the third wing after the christmas period? 

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Phy    1
12 minutes ago, MrCulé said:

So you would postpone the third wing after the christmas period? 

That would be the best tbh. We all want equal chances and as much as we love playing on Sunwell, our families and loved ones are more important, so that would feel like we need to choose between the family and WoW :/

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MrCulé    201
14 minutes ago, Phy said:

That would be the best tbh. We all want equal chances and as much as we love playing on Sunwell, our families and loved ones are more important, so that would feel like we need to choose between the family and WoW :/

I see your point of view and I think many people are in the similar situation. Thank you for your feedback. 

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Lumo    7

Oh and as far as Slave Market goes I mean if it worked on Feronis I dont see why not, maybe even a little late introduced but its far from a P2W feature imo.

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Vaxsysl    8

Your approach is similar to Bloodcraft's while it was active. You have great and open communication with your community and I love you for it.

As far as the slave market goes, how about this: Any char that gets sold is required to rename (for convenience) and the old name is "taken" for one week? And maybe allow customization as well? I doubt that I'll use that feature myself since I enjoy developing my characters; there are many picky people such as me who can't stand having character faces/skin colour not matching the profile we have for them. The only practical negative impact that is coming to my mind is that in some cases the playerbase won't be able to tell who is who - which is exactly why a forced rename would come in handy if the character in question has quite a bit of negative history. There's a felt impact on how players treat others when they know that they cannot hide or escape (so easily).

One should consider the income as well, so the customization doesn't need to come inside the box (but maybe yes with a discount?), but I think that forcing a rename and having the name "taken" for some time (maybe even scripted to /played?) would be good to avoid some bad threads going on about. Maybe having the list of names being public and always available on the website? E.g. char "Kvish" transaction occurred on 27th October 2018? You'll figure out the details how to approach it how you think it's best, I'm just concerned for potential abuses.


Thank you for reaching out to us and listening to our voices and for being transparent and utterly vigilant in your devotion to the project. May Elune guide your path.

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Modred    12

I’m still in opposition to slave market. I understand the points you gave, but consider this instead:

1. Removing achievements does not remove gear. What’s to stop someone from buying or selling fully geared heroic characters so someone who isn’t even capped yet? This goes into my second point.

 

2. On servers with this system, such as Warmane, there is a significant lack of skill in players on these servers because people buy characters and classes they have no idea how to play. If you need evidence of this, my testimony as a former warmane player as well as the retail PTR where typically people make specs they don’t know how to play should suffice. Slave market would harm heroic guilds.

 

3. There is an alternative than can still fund the server some extra cash. Consider selling a level 70 character for a reasonable price (10 USD?) like Dalaran WoW does. One of the arguments behind slave market is that leveling is not fun. However, allowing people the Northrend area to learn their class would fix both issues I listed earlier as well as allows people to skip the most boring, repetitive part of the game. Everyone’s happy.

 

Hope my feedback is welcome.

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MrCulé    201
23 minutes ago, Modred said:

Hope my feedback is welcome.

Of course that is welcome

23 minutes ago, Modred said:

1. Removing achievements does not remove gear. What’s to stop someone from buying or selling fully geared heroic characters so someone who isn’t even capped yet? This goes into my second point.

Removing the achievements is more like a mark for the other players. It should be the sign for the guild masters that a potential candidate isn't as good as his gear. 

23 minutes ago, Modred said:

2. On servers with this system, such as Warmane, there is a significant lack of skill in players on these servers because people buy characters and classes they have no idea how to play. If you need evidence of this, my testimony as a former warmane player as well as the retail PTR where typically people make specs they don’t know how to play should suffice. Slave market would harm heroic guilds.

Agree. I mean there will be a possibility to meet the well-geared characters with poor skills. However you must know that selling/buying characters take place on websites that we don't support(mainly on gold sellers sites). Players do it one way or another. 

23 minutes ago, Modred said:

3. There is an alternative than can still fund the server some extra cash. Consider selling a level 70 character for a reasonable price (10 USD?) like Dalaran WoW does. One of the arguments behind slave market is that leveling is not fun. However, allowing people the Northrend area to learn their class would fix both issues I listed earlier as well as allows people to skip the most boring, repetitive part of the game. Everyone’s happy.

i70 is much more problematic. 

We would have to prepare some system of sending specifc set of items(depends on a specialization). People without proffesions would be looking for the help on Gold sellers sites(where they're often cheated). We don't wanna add additional gold to bought characters. 

Moreover, we don't wanna be involved in giving levels, items etc. Slave Market would be a tool for players without any impact from our side. 

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MrCulé    201
49 minutes ago, Vaxsysl said:

Your approach is similar to Bloodcraft's while it was active. You have great and open communication with your community and I love you for it.

As far as the slave market goes, how about this: Any char that gets sold is required to rename (for convenience) and the old name is "taken" for one week? And maybe allow customization as well? I doubt that I'll use that feature myself since I enjoy developing my characters; there are many picky people such as me who can't stand having character faces/skin colour not matching the profile we have for them. The only practical negative impact that is coming to my mind is that in some cases the playerbase won't be able to tell who is who - which is exactly why a forced rename would come in handy if the character in question has quite a bit of negative history. There's a felt impact on how players treat others when they know that they cannot hide or escape (so easily).

One should consider the income as well, so the customization doesn't need to come inside the box (but maybe yes with a discount?), but I think that forcing a rename and having the name "taken" for some time (maybe even scripted to /played?) would be good to avoid some bad threads going on about. Maybe having the list of names being public and always available on the website? E.g. char "Kvish" transaction occurred on 27th October 2018? You'll figure out the details how to approach it how you think it's best, I'm just concerned for potential abuses.


Thank you for reaching out to us and listening to our voices and for being transparent and utterly vigilant in your devotion to the project. May Elune guide your path.

Bought character would have to be renamed. That public list of transactions is also a good idea. 

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Modred    12
13 minutes ago, MrCulé said:

Moreover, we don't wanna be involved in giving levels, items etc. Slave Market would be a tool for players without any impact from our side

Then compromise and lock slave market off to 70 or below. Either way trading or buying max level characters has never worked well, for anyone. I’m sure someone’s going to say it’s worked for Feronis, but Feronis is dead? If you want to say it worked for Warmane, that’s bull as well because Warmane has been proven time and time again to create fake queues and population counts (ever wonder why their server never drops below 12000 😂😂) because their server is dying.

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MrCulé    201
12 minutes ago, Modred said:

Then compromise and lock slave market off to 70 or below. Either way trading or buying max level characters has never worked well, for anyone. I’m sure someone’s going to say it’s worked for Feronis, but Feronis is dead? If you want to say it worked for Warmane, that’s bull as well because Warmane has been proven time and time again to create fake queues and population counts (ever wonder why their server never drops below 12000 😂😂) because their server is dying.

Slave Market wasn't the reason of Feronis collapse. However gating slave market on specific level is also an idea that should be considered. 

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Modred    12
12 minutes ago, MrCulé said:

Slave Market wasn't the reason of Feronis collapse

Well I was more referring to how a low pop realm isn’t accurate data of how well the system works. But I do appreciate you considering my thoughts.

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MrCulé    201

Slave Market that would be limited to 78 level is very nice idea in of opinion the most part of Sunwell Team members.

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oispakaljaa    0

In my opinion im against it, but if you ever implement any kind of slavemarket, you should do it as it was in Hellground. Character to character marketing only, and not include ingame gold or sunwellcoins in the process.

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hello333    0
icc 10 and 25 will be unbuffed: very disappointed. What's even the point of buffing 10 hcs if all the trinkets and useful things are on 25? Some 10 men Hcs are even more difficult than 25 hcs! Who will be so masochistic to do a tuned 10 hc while 25 is unbuffed? No one (very few actually) and not even going to say anything about the wing released on Christmas and the 2 extra flushes to get PvP people geared rushing the times or the overlapping release with TBC...
 
 
 
also i don't understand why the forum format is messing with the lines, but i guess that's my problem
 
Edited by hello333

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Phy    1

I'm against SM because:
1. Just buying characters won't make people learn the class (if they don't know it already)
2. Claiming Sunwell is blizzlike and have a feature like that is SUPER hypocritical
3. If someone doesn't like levelling, that's too bad. I don't like it either, but there are exp boosts and exp rate x2, which should completely solve this issue. And it makes people donate to the server, how are you gonna make SM profitable? Instead of SM make exp boost a bit cheaper (it's super expensive for people from eastern/southern Europe, take that into consideration)

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Senat    1

Opening week per week is a good idea, but this buff on icc would magically change realm to second Feronis, especially when tbc realm is releasing almoust the same time. Atm there is 3 progressive guilds and i guess that only 2 have insanity on 25 so i don't really see this "hardcore" progress.

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Costin    5
8 hours ago, MrCulé said:

The case of 10 Heroic and 25 Heroic is different. 10-Man Heroic will be hard and 25-Man Heroic, awarded with the most prestigious Realm First achievement in whole Wrath of the Lich King, is going to be very hard. We want the fight against the Lich King to last at least until Spring 2019. More details will come soon.

Well time to get ready for another round of ridiculous class stacking and custom mechanics to do the hard content, or at least that's what I'm going to assume since that's how Malygos and Ulduar rolled.

ICC 25 LK HC fight was a finely tuned DPS race, even with the full buff it wasn't a cakewalk and it took some time to add it and the rest of ICC was hardly a cakewalk. There are 4 guilds currently who have done Anub 25 HC, 3 of them 50/50, fourth with over 45/50 and TOGC is considerably easier then ICC.

Who precisely are you catering to here? A bunch of people in a poll that will never even attempt it? The few of us in guilds even capable of attempting it, unless we get screwed over by the required stacking and insane DPS requirements?

It's understandable that ICC is some years old, but even by default it's not something you walk over when talking of bosses like Lich King, Putricide or Lady Deathwhisper.

Edited by Costin
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MrCulé    201
12 minutes ago, Costin said:

Well time to get ready for another round of ridiculous class stacking and custom mechanics to do the hard content, or at least that's what I'm going to assume since that's how Malygos and Ulduar rolled.

ICC 25 LK HC fight was a finely tuned DPS race, even with the full buff it wasn't a cakewalk and it took some time to add it and the rest of ICC was hardly a cakewalk.

Stacking class is a normal thing in hard progress. If you want to kill encounter as the first you're looking for a method. Classes aren't equal when it comes to damage and healing. 

However we'll do our best to avoid such situation(but as I said, people always look for the best solution). 

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Costin    5
12 minutes ago, MrCulé said:

Stacking class is a normal thing in hard progress. If you want to kill encounter as the first you're looking for a method. Classes aren't equal when it comes to damage and healing. 

However we'll do our best to avoid such situation(but as I said, people always look for the best solution). 

That's certainly fair enough when talking about server firsts, but there were quite a few bosses on this server where it wasn't a case of an advantage but a necessity.

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MrCulé    201
12 minutes ago, Costin said:

That's certainly fair enough when talking about server firsts, but there were quite a few bosses on this server where it wasn't a case of an advantage but a necessity.

I agree when it comes to Malygos(it wasn't tuned as good as should be), but when it comes to Ulduar, well it was an element of progress. 

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