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nimeralos

What's up with the PvE difficulty?

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nimeralos    33

Are you trying to make it 2.0-prenerf, minus bugs like Kael getting aggro during phase 1?

Or will we see some custom Angrathar-style buffs?

Or something in between? Prenerf whenever possible, mild custom buffs whenever there's lack of information? Very mild custom buffs to make up for 2.4.3 classes?

Opinions are welcome as always.

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Fizzla    26

Whatever your answer is devs/admins, please be up front about your balancing plans. Those of us that want a near blizzlike or full blizzlike PvE really want to know the details on how you will approach this. For myself and my crew, we have no problems with buffing hp to compensate for higher dps from later talents. Custom BS on top of that is a no go for us. You are more than entitled to balance however you want, please just be up front.

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Graal    34

Hi there,

thank you for ur interest! Our first idea was to put only pre-nerf statistics on our dungeons and raids. Since it's quite easy to modify those values we are still considering about full CoreCraft boosts. As I said, its easy to change it so we didn't decide yet. We have created poll where we asked players what kind of boosts/mechanics they expect -> https://goo.gl/forms/0FxQ0QR3g364WJus1

When we will decide it once and for all then we will publish our statement :)
Cheers

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Tomcat    5

Well... i think getin close as much as possible to oryginal Blizz (with no bugs :D) for a lot of players is realy important think, (not only in PvE dificulty, but in all cases).

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KimmoKM    34

I think, more so than strict Blizzlikeness (which can  be a bit problematic, more on that later), there's two other criteria that should be preferred:

1. Consistent difficulty. One of the problems on Angrathar was inconsistent difficulty. To an extent this is an issue on Blizzlike Wrath too, seeing as that 5-mans and T7 are faceroll trivial, Ulduar NMs are substantially tougher, Ulduar HMs are overwhelmingly more difficult than anything previously seen, and then TOGC is easier than Ulduar. However, inconsistent custom tuning made this worse: The gap between OS (both raid sizes)/Naxx10, and Naxx25/EoE, was overwhelming. Ulduar was arguably even worse: unlike Naxx25 that featured fairly consistent difficulty across bosses and then Malygos being one step above that, NMs were easy even for the weaker guilds (due to not compensating for final patch talents) but even the easiest of hardmodes would have proved overwhelming and not worth attempting for a lot of guilds that managed to clear normal. Moreover, even if you did beat Orbit-uary and perhaps Yogg+1 (final boss HM being a contender for the easiest hardmode fight doesn't seem right either) or XT-002, the gap between them and the easier keepers was a wide gulf, and the difference between Knock*3/Firefighter was wider still. There was no gradual progression from boss to boss with loot from each new boss conquered helping you to beat the tougher ones, with some steps being worlds apart. From what I've understood, realm first Grand Crusader went to a guild that hadn't beaten Freya HM yet, even after the nerfs! The gap between required execution and raid composition was just that wide.

How does that relate to TBC? Well, for starters, if you go with pre-2.1 tuning on heroics and provably Blizzlike tuning on Karazhan, the raid is far easier, which seems backwards.  Similarly, T5 is notorious for being broken at launch, but if you settle for the final, fixed, versions that actually were killed, most of them would be easier than the most original versions of Gruul and Magtheridon. Similarly, most of T6 is easier than most of T5, and then SWP is again a huge leap. If you pick one standard and apply it across the board, you'll likely end up with a bizarre, often backwards, difficulty curve, and as seen from Angrathar, that's not such a good thing. Final patch tuning wouldn't have the issue at quite this severity, but we want (and need, due to knowledge and experience advantage) some approximation of "pre-nerf".

2. Maintaining Blizzlike IDENTITY of content. For example, the pre-nerf versions of Gruul and Magtheridon are remembered as though Blizzard had designed them for 40-man raids. T5, as mentioned previously, was notorious for being utterly broken, with some bosses changed around a bunch before they were even worth attempting, and the end bosses enjoying a legendary status as some of the longest-lived bosses in the game. The thing is, if you present contemporary high-end guilds with versions that retail guilds from back in the day managed to kill, they'll go down immediately. Conversely, you obviously can't have bosses bugged the same way Kael was, say, and on the other hand, a boss like Morogrim Tidewalker probably wasn't bugged, just too difficult to even bother with his original incarnation with water elemental spawns etc. The thing is, if you managed to implement pre-nerf post-bugfix versions with exactly the same values retail had, some bosses might be impossible even for contemporary guilds, some bosses like Morogrim might be really tough but doable, and then you'd have bosses like Kael being comparatively easy. T5 tuning is such a moving target that, even if you did pick one standard of values you'd use, and managed to research them accurately with no doubt about the values being the most original pre-world first values, difficulty would be all over the place, often times in contradiction with how difficult bosses are perceived.

 

And then there's the feasibility of figuring out the "pre-nerf" state to consider. Take a boss like Curator for instance: I think there are compelling reasons to think he used to have damage reduction shield outside of evocation phase: there are some old forum posts talking about something to that effect, and Astral Armor spell ID is right next to his other spells. I think it's very probable Curator was changed some time early, but can you find definite sources like combat logs from the first week or two when he presumably still had this ability? Maybe, but I haven't seen any.  What about Morogrim Tidewalker water elementals? From what I've seen in discussions from early 2007, guilds didn't even bother to try him. How are you going to find values for their health, damage, spawn locations, anything? Maybe there in fact are reliable sources for some of these details that I'm not aware of - I'm not omniscient so there will definitely be at least some of them - but most likely there will be a lot of times when you have to come up with values yourself by just guessing, or playing it safe and leaving some bosses in their real pre-nerf state and others at something substantially easier, because you couldn't find any proofs... which might well result in backwards difficulty curve discussed earlier.

Personally, I think it's just more convenient  to go with Corecraft values. They meet the two criteria I outlined earlier while at least some of the values definitely being pre-nerf Blizzlike, and given that they obviously didn't custom tune everything, some of the questionable stuff might be based on real research with original sources no longer available. However, you shouldn't treat them as immutable gospel either: while many T5 bosses haven't been tested by serious guilds, I think some values might be on unfairer side of things and would be better off with adjustments. For example, when we were doing Leotheras with a dying guild on Hellground, he seemed doable, but dealing with Inner Demons seemed a bit too overwhelming for a few classes like shadow priests even provided all the help you can give them (earth shields etc). Conversely, Fathom-Guard Tidalvess seemed a bit too RNG for my tastes with potential for windfury 1-shots.

Edited by KimmoKM
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mannimarco    5
1 hour ago, KimmoKM said:

most of T6 is easier than most of T5

But you have forgotten that, unlike WotlK (except for some individual cases) when with the release of TOC, can prepare for ToC without visiting Ulduar and Naxx, almost all raids on TBC are interconnected through quests (attachments), you cannot get into BT by skipping T5 raids, and cannot get into T5 raids by skipping T4 raids. Only after 2.4.0  blizzard have removed the need for these access quests.

Edited by mannimarco

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KimmoKM    34
27 minutes ago, mannimarco said:

But you have forgotten that, unlike WotlK (except for some individual cases) when with the release of TOC, can prepare for ToC without visiting Ulduar and Naxx, almost all raids on TBC are interconnected through quests (attachments), you cannot get into BT by skipping T5 raids. Only after 2.4.0  blizzard have removed the need for these access quests.

I don't think there's doubt in anyone's minds about 4/5 Hyjal and 4/9 BT being substantially easier than killing Kael and Vashj, and while I guess it's reasonable for some early bosses to be easier as a reward of sorts for beating T5, more than half the tier being free loot if you just can access it goes a bit too far. However, in my personal opinion it's not just those bosses but pretty much the entirety of the tier: Archimonde too is an easy fight in terms of numbers and coordination (individual mistakes can fuck the whole raid over, yes, but comparing apples to apple-aspects-of-Archimonde, he's not tough at all), and in BT only Illidari Council starts approaching parity with T5 end bosses... and that's if your point of comparison is 2.1 values for T5 rather than 2.0 never mind pre-nerf! Hell, even Illidan has just one tough phase (P2), the rest of the fight being a mere formality.

Edited by KimmoKM
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