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Sonrakus

Let's discuss glyph undercutters

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Sonrakus    0

Hello. For a few months now, i've noticed a trend regarding glyph prices, or rather, the crashing of glyph prices. For reference, this is what i'm talking about:

https://imgur.com/a/TLjeFlY

https://imgur.com/a/sjt4NYI

https://imgur.com/a/g1lYE8J

https://imgur.com/a/Ic8Ymk8

https://imgur.com/a/A2cLugy

https://imgur.com/a/8wCanRd

Now, i'd like to go on a record and say that i am not here to rant, only to have a constructive discussion as to why this is happening. So please refrain from trolling or bringing in useless arguments.

First off, this perplexes me to no end. I've tried contacting these players but none are ever online. I've only ever been able to speak to one and this particular one was confused, probably didn't look at the prices while using an addon to post auctions with an automatic undercut. I would love to find out why people do this because it is in no way profitable (in some cases it costs more to make the glyph and put it on the AH than the sale price). I've seen some glyphs posted for as low as 2 silver.

The first category of undercutters seem to try to do a hefty undercut (from 40 to 15 gold for example) most likely in an attempt to get a quick sale. While a pretty stupid practice, i can at least understand the effort. They also most likely don't understand that they are setting off a chain reaction that will crash the price, or simply don't care.

But it's the second category of "undercutters" that i'd like to understand. These outright destroy the price and bring it down to below 1g (like the ones displayed in the links above, those are merely a few examples, i have more but i didn't want to spam the thread with links). The only realistic explanations i can think of are faulty addons or people deliberately doing this for some reason. So if anybody could help enlighten me, i'm all ears.

The glyph market has been unstable for a while now. A reasonably priced glyph can drop to a few silvers in mere hours. All that said, i would also like to know if the market for any other item has been affected like this but i'm not noticing it. The prices for gems and enchanting mats has stayed pretty much the same since launch.

EDIT: I know it may seem like an obvious solution, but buying out their stock and reposting it for a normal price has had poor results in my experience. If anything, it only seems to encourage them to keep doing this.

Edited by Sonrakus

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Sonrakus    0
9 minutes ago, TriHard said:

TL:DR for anyone wondering: "Why aren't people buying my overpriced shit, capitalism sucks".

 

1 hour ago, Sonrakus said:

Now, i'd like to go on a record and say that i am not here to rant, only to have a constructive discussion as to why this is happening. So please refrain from trolling or bringing in useless arguments.

 

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TriHard    15
1 hour ago, Sonrakus said:

Now, i'd like to go on a record and say that i am not here to rant, only to have a constructive discussion as to why this is happening. So please refrain from trolling or bringing in useless arguments.

It happens becuase of capitalism and free market, basic economics. 

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Sonrakus    0
13 minutes ago, TriHard said:

It happens becuase of capitalism and free market, basic economics. 

So selling stuff at a loss - free market, basic economics? If you don't notice anything strange here then i really don't know what to tell you. Did you even look at the screenshots? They undercut from 40 gold to 40 silver. No sane mind would do this. Which makes me think probably hacked account, or maybe a bot. I don't know, but i would like to find out which is the whole point of this thread. Not ranting, like i said.

Edited by Sonrakus

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KimmoKM    34

There's several considerations to be made here:

1. There's a lot of glyphs everyone is forced to make while leveling and supply is inevitably high. In a few cases demand might outweigh the supply but in most others you can only ever make glyphs that are useful in small niches or they are outright trap options, and demand will naturally be low in addition to high supply. Given that you had no choice but to make those glyphs, you can effectively disregard the material cost so, as long as the listing price minus AH cut minus AH fee multiplied by the times you need to relist the glyph before you can make a sale isn't lower than vendor price, literally any price is profitable relative to just vendoring the glyphs. The best you can hope for is for someone to buyout all glyphs in attempt to fix the price (with low-demand trap option glyphs, it really might be sensible to undercut 40g to 40s and have the price-fixer buyout, the alternative being to relist the glyph dozens of times before making the sale, at which point the price likely has fallen to <1g anyway), or successfully do that yourself, but that can only be temporary because with excess supply the price will inevitably gravitate towards a few silver over time.

2. In actuality, it's not profitable to sell glyphs at a few silver. Not because you could somehow get a better price, but because during the few seconds you spent listing the glyph, you could have killed and looted half a mob, or done one hundredth of a quest/two thousandth of a raid, or done literally anything else and made more profit. However, stopping to think about listing the glyph might cost even more time or simply isn't something you can bother with when you are listing your inventory of a hundred different glyphs. As long as you know your glyph business is time-efficient way to make gold overall, you simply might not care.

3. To continue this line of reasoning, you make gold by volume of sales. This is a popular and still a rather fresh server so I'd imagine hundreds of glyphs are sold daily. The larger slice of that pot you can grab, the higher the potential profits: it's better to sell a hundred glyphs at 5g profit than ten glyphs at 40g profit. One option is to camp the AH to constantly cancel auctions and undercut competitors by 1c (and given the activity of the AH, this will take a lot of time), another is to deep undercut to drive competitors away from the market altogether. Even mere 1g profit per glyph might be better in terms of active play time spent than 10g profit while having to camp AH 24/7.

 

Now, that isn't to say there aren't players with poorly configured auction house addons or outright fools (after all, there are also people also selling items below their vendor price and on a lot of servers I've seen a phenomenon of all alchemy consumables being sold at below material price, even accounting for alchemy specializations), but in a healthy economy the price of glyphs is expected to be rather low. If players A, B and C agree to fix the prices at high level and each take 1/4ths of the market, it's rational for player D to undercut and take 100% of the market as long as they're still making profit each sale. I've personally given up inscription in favor of getting a few more sp out of JC but while I was at it, I was making perhaps 2k gold per hour of active hour of play time spent and I'm by no means an expert at making gold. Conversely, I know players on this server who are approaching 100k gold made with inscription without even touching the Nobles deck market, and I know players who got gold capped in WotLK retail utilizing deep undercutting strategies

Edited by KimmoKM

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Sonrakus    0
9 hours ago, KimmoKM said:

There's several considerations to be made here:

1. There's a lot of glyphs everyone is forced to make while leveling and supply is inevitably high. In a few cases demand might outweigh the supply but in most others you can only ever make glyphs that are useful in small niches or they are outright trap options, and demand will naturally be low in addition to high supply. Given that you had no choice but to make those glyphs, you can effectively disregard the material cost so, as long as the listing price minus AH cut minus AH fee multiplied by the times you need to relist the glyph before you can make a sale isn't lower than vendor price, literally any price is profitable relative to just vendoring the glyphs. The best you can hope for is for someone to buyout all glyphs in attempt to fix the price (with low-demand trap option glyphs, it really might be sensible to undercut 40g to 40s and have the price-fixer buyout, the alternative being to relist the glyph dozens of times before making the sale, at which point the price likely has fallen to <1g anyway), or successfully do that yourself, but that can only be temporary because with excess supply the price will inevitably gravitate towards a few silver over time.

2. In actuality, it's not profitable to sell glyphs at a few silver. Not because you could somehow get a better price, but because during the few seconds you spent listing the glyph, you could have killed and looted half a mob, or done one hundredth of a quest/two thousandth of a raid, or done literally anything else and made more profit. However, stopping to think about listing the glyph might cost even more time or simply isn't something you can bother with when you are listing your inventory of a hundred different glyphs. As long as you know your glyph business is time-efficient way to make gold overall, you simply might not care.

3. To continue this line of reasoning, you make gold by volume of sales. This is a popular and still a rather fresh server so I'd imagine hundreds of glyphs are sold daily. The larger slice of that pot you can grab, the higher the potential profits: it's better to sell a hundred glyphs at 5g profit than ten glyphs at 40g profit. One option is to camp the AH to constantly cancel auctions and undercut competitors by 1c (and given the activity of the AH, this will take a lot of time), another is to deep undercut to drive competitors away from the market altogether. Even mere 1g profit per glyph might be better in terms of active play time spent than 10g profit while having to camp AH 24/7.

 

Now, that isn't to say there aren't players with poorly configured auction house addons or outright fools (after all, there are also people also selling items below their vendor price and on a lot of servers I've seen a phenomenon of all alchemy consumables being sold at below material price, even accounting for alchemy specializations), but in a healthy economy the price of glyphs is expected to be rather low. If players A, B and C agree to fix the prices at high level and each take 1/4ths of the market, it's rational for player D to undercut and take 100% of the market as long as they're still making profit each sale. I've personally given up inscription in favor of getting a few more sp out of JC but while I was at it, I was making perhaps 2k gold per hour of active hour of play time spent and I'm by no means an expert at making gold. Conversely, I know players on this server who are approaching 100k gold made with inscription without even touching the Nobles deck market, and I know players who got gold capped in WotLK retail utilizing deep undercutting strategies

That's a very reasonable and thought out reply, thank you.

In your first point you argue trap glyph options, that is, glyphs that are a bad option but might seem good so some people might buy it. The ones i listed, however, are not. Not only that but there are some that you learn via books or research. I know that trainer glyphs are most likely going to have a very low price, no matter if it's useless or a staple glyph (for example, glyph of evocate is a must have for pvp, but it costs less than 1g and understandably so). So taking into consideration that books cost, on average, 10 gold, you'd need to sell about 15 just to break even. In my experience, selling 15 of the same glyph is a long endeavor that will take several re-listings.

As for your second point, i have nothing to add, i agree there.

But here we get to the third point. In my OP, i did say that deep undercuts were an understandable strategy, even though i disagree with it, i can understand it. But we are not dealing with those here. While there is a number of players that employ that strategy, i just cannot accept that sane reasoning has lead to someone undercutting from 40 gold to 40 silver on a glyph that you research or learn from a book, that is also a glyph necessary for a given spec. Not to mention that the market wasn't flooded in the first place, these players flood the market with ridiculous undercuts.

Lastly, i am not an expert in making gold either, but i have had a lot of success in making gold just by selling glyphs, it's a slow but steady market that rewards the patient. I'm not going to share the exact number to avoid seeming braggy, but let's just say that given how little i actually interact with the market, i've done very well. So earning gold is not the problem, i am here to investigate, and hopefully find out the reasoning behind this practice.

P.S. On other servers i have seen people selling recipes that you need to buy from vendors for less than the vendor price, so there's that.

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kemp    1

Funny that someone actually bothered to make a thread about it. I sometimes just bring the price down on the bis glyphs just for the fun of other glyphers having to line their price after mine if they plan to sell it anytime soon, I don't even care if they sell or not because there are way better ways of making money. Good for new players needing glyphs, not so good for glyph merchants : )

Also glyph buyers if you are wondering, it shouldn't take more than 5 gold to produce any glyph once you have the recipe, so keep that in mind when wondering about the prices.

Edited by kemp
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Sonrakus    0
On 5/19/2018 at 7:38 AM, kemp said:

Funny that someone actually bothered to make a thread about it. I sometimes just bring the price down on the bis glyphs just for the fun of other glyphers having to line their price after mine if they plan to sell it anytime soon, I don't even care if they sell or not because there are way better ways of making money. Good for new players needing glyphs, not so good for glyph merchants : )

Also glyph buyers if you are wondering, it shouldn't take more than 5 gold to produce any glyph once you have the recipe, so keep that in mind when wondering about the prices.

Well, at least i can take solace in the fact that i am not crazy thinking that at least some genuine intent is behind this.

I'll just say this, you are not ruining my business, you are probably not ruining any serious "glyph merchant's" business because, if you read a previous post of mine, it's a patient man's market. As for low levels, i try to cut them a deal, but someone in outland or northrend can absolutely afford the full price (which is 20-30g, and the way some people go on about it, you'd think that they have 100g in total).

Finally, your last point is especially interesting because, if you follow the logic that the finished product's price should be the material cost plus maybe a little extra as profit, you would find many discrepancies. For example, some enchants cost a lot less than the materials required (yes, ones you use at 80), some raw gems cost a lot less than cut ones (with tips in mind) etc. It's not about how much it costs to make, it's about how much is this worth to you. And for an item that you pay once and never think about again, i'd say that 20-30g for a 'bis' glyph is quite fair. And finally, saying there are "better ways of making money" doesn't mean you should try and ruin the market for the people that leveled up inscription and got all the recipes for it (which took months, also books used to cost 80g on average back then), and are not interested in spamming greatness cards.

I am just surprised how jewelcrafting for example doesn't get any hate with gems that cost up to 100g each (that you need to keep buying new ones every time you get a new piece of gear, as opposed to buying only one set of glyph and being set).

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kemp    1
16 hours ago, Sonrakus said:

I'll just say this, you are not ruining my business, you are probably not ruining any serious "glyph merchant's" business because, if you read a previous post of mine, it's a patient man's market.

 

16 hours ago, Sonrakus said:

And finally, saying there are "better ways of making money" doesn't mean you should try and ruin the market for the people that leveled up inscription and got all the recipes for it (which took months, also books used to cost 80g on average back then), and are not interested in spamming greatness cards.

Aren't you contradicting yourself there? So which one is it, if undercutters are not  ''ruining'' glyph market then everything should be fine and this thread shouldn't even exist, therefore please do carry on patiently waiting until my stacks of volume are selling through or step in and enter with better price or find that obscure glyph that noone cares to make to bait someone who doesn't know it's worthless. I think you still live in the fresh server times where there were fewer glyphers and just failing to adapt to more supply appearing and demand going lower and price reaching the production cost levels or even lower because empty slot in bag is worth more than some glyphs that were made in bulk to level up.

And regarding jewelcrafting you answered yourself there, the market is deeper (due to people constantly upgrading their gear) than some lone guy flooding the market with cheap glyphs that the buyer never need to replace again (literally dependent on new people joining the server and googling their class guides, people making alts and the odd pvper here and there who swaps glyphs for pve/pvp)


 

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Sonrakus    0
7 hours ago, kemp said:

 

Aren't you contradicting yourself there? So which one is it, if undercutters are not  ''ruining'' glyph market then everything should be fine and this thread shouldn't even exist, therefore please do carry on patiently waiting until my stacks of volume are selling through or step in and enter with better price or find that obscure glyph that noone cares to make to bait someone who doesn't know it's worthless. I think you still live in the fresh server times where there were fewer glyphers and just failing to adapt to more supply appearing and demand going lower and price reaching the production cost levels or even lower because empty slot in bag is worth more than some glyphs that were made in bulk to level up.

And regarding jewelcrafting you answered yourself there, the market is deeper (due to people constantly upgrading their gear) than some lone guy flooding the market with cheap glyphs that the buyer never need to replace again (literally dependent on new people joining the server and googling their class guides, people making alts and the odd pvper here and there who swaps glyphs for pve/pvp)


 

Key word there being trying to ruin it, which you admitted by saying that you don't care if they sell, you just want glyph merchants to suffer. I did not contradict myself at all. But learning tactics on how to sell glyphs is not what i came here for, i refer you to my original post. I made this thread in an attempt to discover whether my suspicions were true, not to "cry" or "whine" about not being able to turn a profit and, for the most part, my question has been answered. I just find it sad that a constructive discussion is almost impossible to be had online where each party is just concerned with undermining the other one's arguments. Notice the title of the thread, so far only one reply has been an attempt at a discussion.

What i noticed over these few months though is that the market will always stabilize and the price go back to around 20-30g. I came here to try and uncover the why behind the effort, not to try and change the situation. Hopefully, this clarified the purpose of my thread and we can continue to have a constructive discussion, considering you have anything to add to it of course, or if there is even a discussion to be had anymore.

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Nemo    0

I just wanna add my perspective too all this.

 

One problem I've always had is the need to sell things for, what I feel, is an unnecessary amount. I get that people want to sell as high as they can, but I don't understand what they would possibly do with 10k/20k/+ gold. It never really made sense to me, so I never really cared to try to sell anything to get to this amount in my bank.

 

Second thing I wanna note is that the AH game is pointless in a lot of ways. You can just sell something at the lowest buyout cost, but keep the bid price lower, this automatically places your item/s on the top.

 

Third thing is that I tend to farm my own materials to sell, so I have no problem with leaving out the cost of materials and selling super cheap. No skin off my bones.

 

The only thing I absolutely hate about the AH is that people buy things that are super low, like the sort of costs I would put in and put them in for a lot more. I understand this is capitalism, but I've always had a problem with this. I just have no real argument that would stand with most people.

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Deltafox    3

I don't know which faction you are on, but on horde i rarely encounter people undercutting glyphs by a large amount, usually its a few gold at most (say Glyph of Blurred speed is undercut from 20->17 gold). But a solution to people undercutting by large amounts (like in the first screenshot, where aimed shot went from 40g-40s) you can simply purchase said glyph and resell it, since its unlikely its going to stay that price, so a potential gain for you P:

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